Kawasaki Ninja 250 carbs to efi? Help?

[Greg_E]

It has been many years since I've looked into the MS system and I'm going to buy a small motorcycle as a "toy" and will probably want to make it EFI ('cause it would be super cool ). Not too worried about the ignition since for now it will have it's own ignition system that is fully separate from the fuel system. Now comes the hard part... I'm going to need help finding components to build this system. The bike is 2 cyclinders, liquid cooled, normally aspirated, carbureted, gravity feed fuel flow, and a 14,000+ red line. The hardest part is going to be finding components for a 30+ horsepower engine, I have no idea where to start for something this small. Going to need a MAF, throttle plate, 2 tiny little injectors, fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator and bypass, and I'll probably have to machine the intakes. Might want to put in a ram air induction while I am messing with all this. I would also really like to put an O2 sensor on this to help with tuning and making sure elevation and air temperature will not mess up the tuning (closed loop?).

There is an EFI system for this bike in Europe, but only the last two model years and I'm not finding any parts for the stock EFI.

What I do know is that the MicroSquirt looks like the ECU that I need.

A lot of this is driven by geek factor, but when riding a 250 anything is going to add to the fun. Ripping the carbs out every time I want to make a change would get old fast, and it would be really cool to connect my Fujitsu u810 to the bike and fiddle with it when needed.

Later I might want to integrate the ignition options that the MicroSquirt offers. I also have an old air cooled 600 that I might want to convert if I can get it running again.

[EWflyer]

Look down the page for the post by "EWflyer" that's me. I think you'll find it interesting.
http://www.microsquirt.com/viewtopic.ph ... 7&start=50

There are lot's of the new-generation Euro-fuel injected models being sold, wrecked, and eventually parted-out all the time. Maybe you could get lucky and find one too.

Then get in touch with me if you're really serious about the conversion.

I say this because there have been several other guys I've tried to work/dialogue with on the EX-250 carbs to fuel injection conversion issue, but they all start off excited for a day or week then they disappear. So I'm really not holding out much hope that you'll be around/interested in the issue a week or month from now either.

I'm busy riding the heck out of my bike this summer (plus two jobs, kids, and my sport is long distance running), but I plan to do my EX-250 carbs to EFI conversion in November (which is when I do most of my major motorcycle projects each year). I've been preparing for this build by gathering parts and information and reading up on Mega and Micro squirt for about 6 or 7 months now.

As I said, I've been looking for someone else who's got the skills, enthusiasm, and the work ethic to stick to this project and see it through. It just seems like it would be more fun to work through the problems and various issues (fuel system design, wiring, etc.) with someone else's thoughs and input rather than working alone in a vacuum.

Here's the fuel pump I plan to use, it's an Suzuki LT-R450 Quadracer pump. Small and simple. I've looked at the idea of in-tank pumps, but having read of difficulties and failures in posts by other people trying to put in-tank pumps in "classic" tanks with their small lower cavities, I'd rather go old-school with the externally mounted pump. I've also got the LT-R450's fuel pressure regulator (42psi).


Planning to run a two-into one exhaust. Mainly because it will give me a single point for the oxygen sensor to read from, and also because it'll give the bike a better look and peformance. I'm planning purchase the Area P exhaust later this month when they begin production. Here's a picture of the prototype.




Here's a picture of the fuel injection throttle body donor bike that got wrecked this spring in Bristol England. Moments before the "parting out" process began.


Here's my bike, a 2005 EX-250R


Greg

[Greg_E]

I read about the Area P exhaust for the 07 and earlier bikes last night, was thinking 2 into 1 for the same reasons. My big issue right now is lack of bike, all the people on Craig's list are smoking crack when they come up with the prices. I've wanted to do a MegaSquirt project for more than 5 years, found out the emissions laws changed and I could not do my car anymore and been away from bikes for twice that time. It's going to take me a while to get going even if I can get a decent used bike this week. Going to need tires straight away, then the exhaust and jet kit while I look for parts and formulate a plan. I'm not seeing FI parts for the ex250 on ebay, so they may be few and far between which leads me to think I may need to build my own throttle plates, injector mounts, and adapt a MAF from some other vehicle. You seem to be at least 6 months ahead of me at this time.

The only real reason I want to FI one of these bikes is to learn about the system. I'm sure the carbs with a jet kit are giving pretty much all the bike can get in stock engine form, so there won't really be any power gains. It would just be an expensive toy for geek points. Though if I could make ram air induction work then there might be another couple horsepower to be gained at speed which would be really cool. I don't feel like trying to build ram air on top of the carbs, too much work to pressurize the carbs and fuel tank, FI would make it so much easier.

So I'm looking at between $2000 and $3000 for the bike, another $250 in tires, another $700 for intake and exhaust before I even start on the FI parts. I expect at least $1000 for all the FI related parts by the time I'm done. Going to take a while to swallow all of that expense. ANd that all assumes that I buy a used bike with no warranty (if I can find a seller that isn't high). There is the possibility that I'll pick up a brand new 09 SE that is sitting on the local show room floor, if they would drop the price it would be a much nicer value but they still want $4099 this late in the season (bike season ends in about middle to end of September here). If I don't get a bike in the next two weeks I'll be too busy during the week to get it registered and I'll have to put it off for another year.

What I'm saying is that if I can get a bike, I'll start on the path but it is going to take me probably a year before it is to the stage of putting things together. Just thought the time was right to start asking questions about things so I know what to look for on ebay (etc.).

[EWflyer]

My motivation for doing the EFI conversion is that my EX-250 is my "tinker toy" and I'm a bit of a geek too.

Your mention of the money issue worries me. It's a hobby with me, so money isn't an issue. Besides, it's really not that much to spend on a vehicle project. You should see some of the high-dollar hobby vehicles my friends have (old Alfa, Porsche, Corvette, even a Cobra). My spending, by comparison, is minor.

As far as finding a used EX-250, I'd say to avoid Ebay and Craig's list. Look locally. When I was looking for an EX-250 the hard-used, bad condition bikes were on Ebay and Craig's list and the sweet, garage-queens were in the local papers. My 2005, in absolutely perfect condition (owned by a woman) was $2,300 (with no negotiation, it was so sweet I was happy to pay her price) in June of 2007.

Also, you can't beat these guys as a source for information on all things EX-250: http://forums.ninja250.org/

[Greg_E]

There is an 07 I'm going to call about tomorrow that might be nice if I can get them to drop about $300.

The money is a slight issue, but I like to know what I'm getting into before I start. Nothing worse that getting started on a project that you think is going to be cheap and it just keeps sucking you in with more costs. If I can get into it for $5000 it will be a neat toy that will teach me a few things that I can apply to other machines.

[EWflyer]

I'm planning a standard MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) sensor with a (hopefully) well tuned VE table. I've heard/read of guys using MAP/MAF blend of sensor input on car installations, but not one on a motorcycle yet. I'd be surprised if you could find a MAF sensor to fit and work on the EX-250, but if you've got a solution in mind I'd like to hear about it. Most I've read about are built for cars and are therefore much bigger than the EX-250 would need (or would fit in the limited space down there).

It would certainly be some fun math to compute the airflow needs of the EX-250 engine and then compare those numbers to other engines that you might source a MAF sensor from to see if you could find a workable solution. I'd like to have the airflow numbers just to know what they are.

[Greg_E]

How about a 55 horse power 3 cylinder Chevy Metro/Suzuki Swift? Pretty close to the 30 horse power of the 250 and probably the smallest we'll find in the USA. Any of the quads or other utility vehicles use a MAF?

[Greg_E]

The special price on the AP exhaust system is supposed to be out today. He also said welding the O2 bung on the exhaust would be no problem so we just need to decide which exact sensor to use so they know the size. I think the overall size of the sensor will be an important detail since there isn't a lot of room under the bike after the 2:1 weld.

I'm not sure if we want narrow or wide band for this sensor, haven't done the research yet. All I know is that I would prefer to have an O2 sensor to support fine control of the AFR after the maps are made. If narrow is smaller, cheaper and supported, I'm happy. GOing to have to kind of take your lead since you are so much farther along than I am.

[Greg_E]

See the pre-gen thread at ninjette.org for details on the O2 sensors that we might want to use. I have not had the chance to look up the specs of them yet.

[EWflyer]

On the subject of MAF sensors:

They don't still make the Metro/Swift, do they? I always thought they were set up for super-low price so I figured they were carburated.

I looked at the MAP/MAF sensor blend information and it seemed like a relatively complex tuning proposition. I definitely see the advantages of operating that way if you can get it working.

I looked at this page, http://www.microsquirt.info/mafmap.htm and could just see myself chasing my tail around and around trying to understand the interrelated issues involved in getting MAF/MAP blend to work.

On the subject of Oxygen Sensors:

I'm definitely going to use a wideband type oxygen sensor.

I'm going to use the the Innovate LC-1 Digital Wideband Controller with an add-on Standalone gauge up at the bike's instrument cluster. Here's the DIYAutoTune web page: http://www.DIYAutoTune.com/catalog/-c-2 ... 878f941d4f

Also, because the EX-250's exhaust is a narrow diameter tube, (even on the Area P two-into-one unit after the collector merge point) a standard length weld-on bung for the Oxygen Sensor might cause the sensor's nose to protrude too far into the narrow tube and affect/inhibit the exhaust flow. So I plan to use an extended length bung to prevent this from happening. Here's the DIYAutoTune web page for it: http://www.DIYAutoTune.com/catalog/inno ... p-188.html

I'm going to get this extended length bung machined to the tube's radius before getting it welded onto the exhaust. I've looked carefully at the routing of both the stock exhaust and the Area P exhaust and I believe there's room to attach it just behind the rear of the engine's oil pan, just in front (and clear of) the Uni-Trak suspension linkage and it's rangeof motion. Oriented horizontally across the bike hidden from road hazards by the oil pan.

And, finally...

Here's a look at someone who's already had success doing the carb to fuel injection project. He converted a CB-750, it's a cool video to watch, very motivational.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWP7Y9LMCg

Later,

Greg

[Greg_E]

I would suggest getting the part number on that O2 and sending it to them with the order, that way they can weld the bung in the best place and depth to avoid spoiling the flow inside the exhaust. Kind of pricey with that LC1 but I can see why people like it. Might help me get the carb jetting correctly while I hunt for parts.

The Metro and Swift are now gone, but there are other small cars that might have a similar output. The Metro had a single injector throttle body that is basically just a bolt on where the carb normally went, it is pretty crude but it did have MAP and MAF (GM I think).

[Matt Cramer]

While there are injected Metros out there, they were all speed density as far as I've been able to tell. It seems like a lot of the cheap, small engines used speed density instead of a MAF.

[Greg_E]

Hate to tell you this, but things at work are going sideways and will probably hideside into the guard rail, so I'm sitting on evey dollar I was going to spend until I see how things are going to turn out, Also whether I may be best getting a job elsewhere and moving would be easier if I didn't have to many vehicles to transport. Keep going though and I'll try to add anything that I think of while you are working.

[Greg_E]

Still thinking of this... Lately I've been thinking that the way BMW did some of their early bikes (k75s) might be better. They used an intake manifold with runners to each cylinder, and an injector per cylinder, with a single throttle. Pretty much the way most cars are done. This should provide a decent level of performance but will require building that manifold, drilling and welding the injector mounts, building the fuel rail. What it will allow is to use a single MAP for engine load and the second MAP for ambient real time changes.

I'm starting to think that I need to find an older cheaper bike to work on, that way when I start hacking it I won't feel bad. Was previously looking for an 07 or 08/09 but prices are really more than I want to pay and the season is almost over for me as it is getting cold, hit low 40's last night and held the cold until way after I would need to be at work so I'm getting to the point of only being able to ride on weekends.