First, the engine, for all intents and purposes, is a GM 3100... With 11.4:1 compression and 22# injectors.
MS2 v 2.905 on V3.0 board with GM MS to 1227165 DIY Autotune adapter board and TunerStudio latest version.
All tables set. The IAC is giving me fits. It works fine. It's just that I can't get a consistant quick start with the crank PW set and can't get a consistant idle speed. I have no vacuum leaks and when the engine starts right, the idle intake pressure is between 27 and 30 kPa. All through the temperature range (max 195* right now until I get a lower temp thermostat installed).
Now, through testing earlier on an identical 3100 throttle body, I have found that the IAC pintle is fully retracted at 255 counts (won't go any further any more than that). I also found that, from that position, setting the "Crank Steps" to 180 fully closes the pintle. I'd like to get the IAC where the engine idle speed is 12-1300 until hitting 160*F and around 8-900 after.
Setting the IAC Crank Steps to around 120 gets me a good fast cold start. Hot start? Forget it. Takes throttle input. Changing the IAC steps helps a bit, but then I would assume it affects the cold starts. Not only that, if I do get the engine to start when hot, the intake pressure (and with it, of course, the fuel mixture changes). When I finally shut it down tonight, the idle kPa was 45 and there was obviously too much fuel in the mixture as evidenced by the exhaust note! And the engine idle speed wavers a bit for a few moments until it finally settles at whatever speed the IAC decides it wants to finally stop at.
I have plates on the car, but forget driving it... If I were to stop at a gas station, that wouldn't be a good thing to do...
I didn't get a log tonight, but I'll get it tomorrow.
Boggling IAC issue
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Read the manual to see if your question is answered there before posting. Many users will not reply if the answer is already available in the manual.
If your question is about troubleshooting, configuration, or tuning, you MUST include your processor type (MS-I or MS-II) and code version in your post. If your question is about PCB assembly or modifications, you must also include the main board version number (1.01, 2.2 or 3.0). For tuning/troubleshooting questions, please attached a datalog and your MSQ file to your post.
If you have questions about MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra code configuration or tuning, please post them at www.msextra.com Such questions posted here will be moved to: a temporary MSextra sub-forum, where they will be removed after 7 days
The full forum rules are here: Forum Rules, be sure to read them all regularly.
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Matt Cramer
- Super Squirter
- Posts: 2951
- Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:35 am
Re: Boggling IAC issue
If you can get a log of it, I'll be glad to have a look.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Okay, I finally got the log. Today I noticed a couple of things:
1. IAC opening "Time Based After Start" is DISABLED in TunerStudio by setting the "Active Below Coolant Temp" to -40* F. Yet, it's still running, as you will be able to see in the log. The TBAS is set to 140 steps, which means around 1800 or so RPM at idle until the IAC is closed (3 seconds after start) to where the table setting is.
2. It doesn't matter the IAC position when starting because the MSII is for some reason changing the A/F mixture every time the engine is started when hot. In other words, if I start the engine cold, I can run using the same settings all day as long as there is gas in the tank. But, when I shut it off (to, say, fill the tank), it's a whole new ball game in terms of the fuel mixture, generally for the richer... WITHOUT changing the VE table or the spark advance in TunerStudio. If I had to guess, I'd say that the MSII is adding 10% more fuel every hot start...
I have a narrow-band O2S. The AFR target table is, I believe, disabled. I also have O2S based mixture correction disabled. So why does the MSII keep messing with the AFM?
In the log, the first run cycle is from cold to about 140* or so coolant temp, when I shut it off to adjust the throttle stop screw to get the idle speed down a bit. You will notice that the intake pressure went from around 31 kPa at idle to 44 (because there is more fuel in the mix and the exhaust note confirms this). The second run cycle ends when I turn the key off again. I let the gauges in TS drop down to 0 (a couple of seconds) and then attempted to restart the engine without using throttle input. I failed, and had to open the throttle about 9% to get the engine to start. The third run cycle has an idle intake pressure of 53(ish) kPa. No changes to anything in TS, or the engine itself. Just started the engine, let it run for a couple of seconds, and then shut it off again before stopping the log, shutting down the laptop, and coming inside.
(apparently I need to compress the log into a zip before posting it... Going to be a little while)
1. IAC opening "Time Based After Start" is DISABLED in TunerStudio by setting the "Active Below Coolant Temp" to -40* F. Yet, it's still running, as you will be able to see in the log. The TBAS is set to 140 steps, which means around 1800 or so RPM at idle until the IAC is closed (3 seconds after start) to where the table setting is.
2. It doesn't matter the IAC position when starting because the MSII is for some reason changing the A/F mixture every time the engine is started when hot. In other words, if I start the engine cold, I can run using the same settings all day as long as there is gas in the tank. But, when I shut it off (to, say, fill the tank), it's a whole new ball game in terms of the fuel mixture, generally for the richer... WITHOUT changing the VE table or the spark advance in TunerStudio. If I had to guess, I'd say that the MSII is adding 10% more fuel every hot start...
I have a narrow-band O2S. The AFR target table is, I believe, disabled. I also have O2S based mixture correction disabled. So why does the MSII keep messing with the AFM?
In the log, the first run cycle is from cold to about 140* or so coolant temp, when I shut it off to adjust the throttle stop screw to get the idle speed down a bit. You will notice that the intake pressure went from around 31 kPa at idle to 44 (because there is more fuel in the mix and the exhaust note confirms this). The second run cycle ends when I turn the key off again. I let the gauges in TS drop down to 0 (a couple of seconds) and then attempted to restart the engine without using throttle input. I failed, and had to open the throttle about 9% to get the engine to start. The third run cycle has an idle intake pressure of 53(ish) kPa. No changes to anything in TS, or the engine itself. Just started the engine, let it run for a couple of seconds, and then shut it off again before stopping the log, shutting down the laptop, and coming inside.
(apparently I need to compress the log into a zip before posting it... Going to be a little while)
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Disregard the TBAS... May have confused it with the normal start as I have that set to 3 second crank to run delay... I'll change the "crank to run" delay again when I'm sure the IAC is closer to right.
I went into the tune file and found I had the O2S "controller step size" set to 10% and some other O2S settings that were pretty screwy. I set the step size to 2%, the "Active Above RPM" to 1600, and the "Active Below MAP" to 35 kPa. Hopefully that will help a little bit with the idle situation. Any other suggestions will be much appreciated.
I'll report back if the problem continues to rear its ugly head.
I went into the tune file and found I had the O2S "controller step size" set to 10% and some other O2S settings that were pretty screwy. I set the step size to 2%, the "Active Above RPM" to 1600, and the "Active Below MAP" to 35 kPa. Hopefully that will help a little bit with the idle situation. Any other suggestions will be much appreciated.
I'll report back if the problem continues to rear its ugly head.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Well, after resetting the O2S settings...
Now the problem crops up BEFORE THE ENGINE IS HOT. It didn't even get to 180* tonight.
I was watching the Realtime Display during a couple of starts after the issue popped up tonight and I noticed that EGO Correction is not working (as I set it to only work above 1600 RPM). The MAP settled to the usual pressure after starting for a few seconds. The injector PW was around 1.6-1.7 ms. Then, the injector PW started randomly jumping to 2.3-2.5 ms, bringing with it the MAP reading, dropping the RPMs due to bad mix, and the EGO correction unchanged (100%).
Anyone have any guesses as to why the MS is randomly increasing the injector PW 30% (yes, that is THIRTY PERCENT) with no inputs from the throttle, MAF, MAP, RPM, or the O2S?
Also, anyone have a clue as to why I've set the TPS 4 times now to zero it out and the MS is still reading it at -1% ?
Now the problem crops up BEFORE THE ENGINE IS HOT. It didn't even get to 180* tonight.
I was watching the Realtime Display during a couple of starts after the issue popped up tonight and I noticed that EGO Correction is not working (as I set it to only work above 1600 RPM). The MAP settled to the usual pressure after starting for a few seconds. The injector PW was around 1.6-1.7 ms. Then, the injector PW started randomly jumping to 2.3-2.5 ms, bringing with it the MAP reading, dropping the RPMs due to bad mix, and the EGO correction unchanged (100%).
Anyone have any guesses as to why the MS is randomly increasing the injector PW 30% (yes, that is THIRTY PERCENT) with no inputs from the throttle, MAF, MAP, RPM, or the O2S?
Also, anyone have a clue as to why I've set the TPS 4 times now to zero it out and the MS is still reading it at -1% ?
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Matt Cramer
- Super Squirter
- Posts: 2951
- Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:35 am
Re: Boggling IAC issue
This sounds like sensor noise triggering acceleration enrichment.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Well, this happened even with accel enrich disabled as per the guide (I just re-enabled it a week ago and this problem has been there for a couple months now).
Is it possible solder flux is causing this? I cleaned up the board as best I could, but it isn't very pretty. What's something good to use to clean off the flux? I've already tried isopropyl alcohol, and that doesn't work so hot...
Is it possible solder flux is causing this? I cleaned up the board as best I could, but it isn't very pretty. What's something good to use to clean off the flux? I've already tried isopropyl alcohol, and that doesn't work so hot...
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Matt Cramer
- Super Squirter
- Posts: 2951
- Joined: Sat Jul 03, 2004 11:35 am
Re: Boggling IAC issue
I'd use rubbing alcohol or acetone to clean the board.
Do you have a fresh data log of the issue?
Do you have a fresh data log of the issue?
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
I'll let you know when I get it back running... I spent all day today scrubbing the goop off of both sides of both PCBs and now it's running like poop. I have to hold the go pedal just to keep it running and it's cutting out before picking up again. I scrubbed it originally with some cleaner, but that didn't cut the goop, so I went and got some 91% rubbing alcohol (all we had here was 70% and the goop was just laughing at it). I cleaned the boards with that, but it left them covered in a film of goop, so I went back and hit it again with the original cleaner (mix of 2 kinds of alcohols and denatured water). Took a couple tries to get all of the goop off but then it wasn't running right, so I hit it again with just the cleaner (I had just left the alcohol to evaporate after the last scrubbing before I tried starting the engine) and rinsed it with water. I'm going to let it dry out overnight before trying again early tomorrow. If needed, I'm going to go out and get some contact cleaner to make sure that the DB37 and the MSII socket are clean as possible just in case that is where the issue is.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Well, after the final cleaning and letting the board dry overnight, the engine runs again.
I need to get the injector PW UNDER 2.0 ms, preferably 1.5-1.7. I tried adjusting EVERYTHING, and I still can't get the PW under 2.0 ms. Right now, it's hovering between 2 and 2.4 ms.
I'll post today's datalog later.
I need to get the injector PW UNDER 2.0 ms, preferably 1.5-1.7. I tried adjusting EVERYTHING, and I still can't get the PW under 2.0 ms. Right now, it's hovering between 2 and 2.4 ms.
I'll post today's datalog later.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Okay, this thing is driving me bonkers. One day I can't get the idle injector PW under 2.0 ms. Today it started above there and then dropped to the 1.6/1.7 ms it should be at. Also had to readjust the IAC closed hot idle counts just to get the engine to idle at 1000 RPM. Hot starting is proving to be difficult again but it will eventually run without throttle input. And the TPS low ADC count still requires adjustment almost every time I go to run the engine. Also put some more fuel into the VE table.
I changed nothing on the engine physically except I dropped the fuel pressure a bit and I ended up putting it back in again.
I'll get another datalog either tomorrow or the following day depending on work, but this is driving me nuts. I didn't have these kinds of issues with my stock GM ECM (next-to-untuneable 1227302) before the engine modifications. All I did was to add a couple wires to the harness (for the MAP and knock sensors), replace the MAF sensor connector, and lengthen the wiring for the IAC, CTS, and TPS by about a foot to get the wiring harness to go from one side of the front of the engine to the other with the rest of that part of the harness (factory wiring comes up one side of the engine for the TPS, IAC, and alternator and I needed to get the TPS and IAC onto the other side of the throttle body where the running parts are).
I changed nothing on the engine physically except I dropped the fuel pressure a bit and I ended up putting it back in again.
I'll get another datalog either tomorrow or the following day depending on work, but this is driving me nuts. I didn't have these kinds of issues with my stock GM ECM (next-to-untuneable 1227302) before the engine modifications. All I did was to add a couple wires to the harness (for the MAP and knock sensors), replace the MAF sensor connector, and lengthen the wiring for the IAC, CTS, and TPS by about a foot to get the wiring harness to go from one side of the front of the engine to the other with the rest of that part of the harness (factory wiring comes up one side of the engine for the TPS, IAC, and alternator and I needed to get the TPS and IAC onto the other side of the throttle body where the running parts are).
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Okay, the MSII decided to cooperate and run properly today. I think I got the IAC mostly set. The engine actually wants to behave and run properly for the moment. It turned out that I had the hot crank PW almost 2 msec too high, so I turned it down a bit. I might have to turn it down a couple tenths more along with the rest, but it seems to be working decent now. I ordered a replacement starter drive for the GOOD starter, so I should have a bit easier (and quieter) crank soon (and possibly with a bit more engine RPM out of it).
I'm going to go tomorrow and get 5 more gallons of gas for the tank and keep testing. I still need to hook up my vapor canister and find out if and where I can find the vac problems with that so that can be hooked up before I go for inspection.
I'm going to go tomorrow and get 5 more gallons of gas for the tank and keep testing. I still need to hook up my vapor canister and find out if and where I can find the vac problems with that so that can be hooked up before I go for inspection.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Yawn... Still fighting with the IAC. Works right one run cycle, runs like crud the next when I get the hot idle speed set. I'm trying to mimic the factory ECM by having the idle speed around 12-1300 until hitting operating temp where it drops down to around 900 (factory setting actually goes lower but the MS won't go down to 550 RPM).
Still having the mystery injector pulse blowup. Runs fine at an average of 1.73 msec pulse width and then randomly goes to 2.4 msec OR HIGHER (I've seen it go as high as 8, which of course kills the engine). Oh, and it would randomly start behaving again for a few seconds before being a pain...
Tried resetting the TPS and MAP sample rates and every lag factor to a higher number to smooth out the readings. I was following the histogram in the Acceleration Wizard for the MAP and TPS. Got both the TPS and MAP readings to remain dead flat (no sharp peaks or anything). When the injector pulse increased for whatever reason, the MAP reading in the Wizard showed peaks that were shaped almost like a toothed wheel pulse with random spacing?
I'm going to try swapping the MSII firmware to the version recommended for crank trigger systems and see if that helps even a little.
Yes, I know, another datalog... I'm pretty sure I didn't get one today, but I'll get one ASAP. I have one from 2 days ago (when it was running right for the most part) I'll post in a bit when I can get it zipped up...
Still having the mystery injector pulse blowup. Runs fine at an average of 1.73 msec pulse width and then randomly goes to 2.4 msec OR HIGHER (I've seen it go as high as 8, which of course kills the engine). Oh, and it would randomly start behaving again for a few seconds before being a pain...
Tried resetting the TPS and MAP sample rates and every lag factor to a higher number to smooth out the readings. I was following the histogram in the Acceleration Wizard for the MAP and TPS. Got both the TPS and MAP readings to remain dead flat (no sharp peaks or anything). When the injector pulse increased for whatever reason, the MAP reading in the Wizard showed peaks that were shaped almost like a toothed wheel pulse with random spacing?
I'm going to try swapping the MSII firmware to the version recommended for crank trigger systems and see if that helps even a little.
Yes, I know, another datalog... I'm pretty sure I didn't get one today, but I'll get one ASAP. I have one from 2 days ago (when it was running right for the most part) I'll post in a bit when I can get it zipped up...
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
This morning I found out what the issue seems to be...
I currently have the ECU sitting on the floor for better access. While the engine was running, I needed to pull it towards me for some reason, and when I did, the engine started running like junk. I pushed the ECU back towards the firewall and the engine ran better. The same happened when I repeated the process. It looks like I'm going to spend a couple hours this weekend removing all of the terminals from the ECU connectors and squeezing them closed so that they fit tighter on the ECU pins.
Now if I can get the idle speed to cooperate, I'll be set to continue tuning.
I currently have the ECU sitting on the floor for better access. While the engine was running, I needed to pull it towards me for some reason, and when I did, the engine started running like junk. I pushed the ECU back towards the firewall and the engine ran better. The same happened when I repeated the process. It looks like I'm going to spend a couple hours this weekend removing all of the terminals from the ECU connectors and squeezing them closed so that they fit tighter on the ECU pins.
Now if I can get the idle speed to cooperate, I'll be set to continue tuning.
Re: Boggling IAC issue
I'd caution against bending any connectors - you'll likely make things worse. Use a decent connector cleaner. DB connectors are generally very reliable unless abused. Was your test with the DB 37 screwed in place? If so, it sounds more like a problem in the wiring. Or (unlikely) an interference field upsetting MS.
Dave P, London UK.
Rover V-8
MSII V3
EDIS
Tech Edge Wideband
Rover V-8
MSII V3
EDIS
Tech Edge Wideband
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
The problem isn't in the DB37... It's in my Delphi connectors that plug into the harness side of the MS to GM 165 adapter. I have noticed before that a couple of them could use some help (believe it or not, I actually had a ground push itself completely out of the connector body a long time ago and had to push it back in because my factory ECM wasn't working with it pushed out at all), but I didn't think they were so bad that moving the ECU half an inch would screw up the whole mess.
Also went back and started the VE table from scratch using the table generator... It's been running decent when I can get it to idle all through the RPM band, but under stresses of driving, it kicks like a mule and backfires and everything else, especially when the AE kicks in. I'm still having issues with the IAC not wanting to do the same thing twice (almost every single time I start the engine, I have to reset the IAC curve higher and lower and so on). I'm hoping most of these issues go away when I tighten the Delphi terminals.
Anyone have any guesses as to why it seems my O2S (lambda sensor) won't read properly? It seems to have gotten stuck at 17:1 AFR since I cleaned the MS board. Rich, lean, doesn't matter, it's still stuck at 17.00:1 as per the gauge on the TS home screen.
Also went back and started the VE table from scratch using the table generator... It's been running decent when I can get it to idle all through the RPM band, but under stresses of driving, it kicks like a mule and backfires and everything else, especially when the AE kicks in. I'm still having issues with the IAC not wanting to do the same thing twice (almost every single time I start the engine, I have to reset the IAC curve higher and lower and so on). I'm hoping most of these issues go away when I tighten the Delphi terminals.
Anyone have any guesses as to why it seems my O2S (lambda sensor) won't read properly? It seems to have gotten stuck at 17:1 AFR since I cleaned the MS board. Rich, lean, doesn't matter, it's still stuck at 17.00:1 as per the gauge on the TS home screen.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Well, after squeezing the terminals in my factory harness connectors to fit tighter into the ECU, everything seems to be better. At the moment, the IAC is behaving on hot starts (didn't have to reset it every time I fired the engine hot). Don't know about cold starts yet. I also ended up resetting just about every other table as well and things seem to be peachy for the moment.
I also figured out that the O2S gauge on the TS home screen doesn't seem to be working PERIOD since I upgraded the MSII code and the matching INI. I've been monitoring the O2S voltage via the Realtime Display for tuning. For some reason, the gauge doesn't seem to be responding to the changing O2S voltage. The only time the gauge reads anything below 17:1 is after cycling the power to the MSII while the O2S is providing a signal output showing less than 17:1.
I also figured out that the O2S gauge on the TS home screen doesn't seem to be working PERIOD since I upgraded the MSII code and the matching INI. I've been monitoring the O2S voltage via the Realtime Display for tuning. For some reason, the gauge doesn't seem to be responding to the changing O2S voltage. The only time the gauge reads anything below 17:1 is after cycling the power to the MSII while the O2S is providing a signal output showing less than 17:1.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Well, now, we're back to the can't run the same for 2 starts in a row thing. Started the engine this morning, ran the car around the block, with only a mild buck in the middle of the VE table, and put it back in the driveway. Followed by making a slight adjustment to the VE table (in the upper middle part of it, nowhere near the idle block). Come back 2 hours later to go to work, and the engine starts rough and needs the IAC adjusted. Took 15 steps out of it and the engine idled fine. Go to back out of the driveway and that went fine, but when I put the trans in 1st and went to drive away, the engine was running like crap, jerking and bucking. Took several steps back out of the part of the VE table I had adjusted previously, and the same result happened. Idle is fine. Everything else? Forget it. Next, I'm going to adjust the AE and see what happens.
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maverickh1l
Re: Boggling IAC issue
Well, I figured out the bucking issue and replaced the fuel pump (very low flow)...
And now we're back to the won't run when hot thing.
Observances:
Dropping WUE to 0 even when I should be using it does NOTHING.
Disabling AE does nothing.
Pulling 20-40 points out of the VE table, when malfunctioning, makes the problem WORSE.
The change in MAP pressure is a RESULT of the malfunction, not part of it.
The injector PW DROPS with the throttle opened more than 6% except above slightly more than that. Once the accelerator is released to drop the TPS% below 6%, the injector PW INCREASES.
I still can't seem to possibly comprehend why the engine runs just fine one minute, shut it off for a second, restart it, and it runs like crap?! No changes to software settings, hood not even opened. One minute the injector PW is around 1.7ms and at the restart it's over 2.3... Whereupon the engine dies. The engine cranks and fires right up, but when the error is occuring, it runs REALLY bad for about 2-3 seconds (if that) before dying out UNLESS I put my foot on the gas and get the TPS% above 6 or so...
I have a datalog from 2 hours ago... I need to get it off of my other laptop and bundle it with the MSQ and zip it off...
And now we're back to the won't run when hot thing.
Observances:
Dropping WUE to 0 even when I should be using it does NOTHING.
Disabling AE does nothing.
Pulling 20-40 points out of the VE table, when malfunctioning, makes the problem WORSE.
The change in MAP pressure is a RESULT of the malfunction, not part of it.
The injector PW DROPS with the throttle opened more than 6% except above slightly more than that. Once the accelerator is released to drop the TPS% below 6%, the injector PW INCREASES.
I still can't seem to possibly comprehend why the engine runs just fine one minute, shut it off for a second, restart it, and it runs like crap?! No changes to software settings, hood not even opened. One minute the injector PW is around 1.7ms and at the restart it's over 2.3... Whereupon the engine dies. The engine cranks and fires right up, but when the error is occuring, it runs REALLY bad for about 2-3 seconds (if that) before dying out UNLESS I put my foot on the gas and get the TPS% above 6 or so...
I have a datalog from 2 hours ago... I need to get it off of my other laptop and bundle it with the MSQ and zip it off...